Curse

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra

Being 14, I take offence to some of the posts regarding the "children" on the game, but besides that.

I go r/me everywhere too, and nobody will take it. In Tombs (b/p or balanced, doesn't matter) if you aren't a r/mo, nobody wants you because you dont have "zomgleetrebirthnooblololiamtehnoob" rebirth.

People also don't like my mesmer because it's not e-denial. In PVE. WTF?

But the worst thing had to be when my friend and I worked ourselves out a really nice heal/prot build (2 person, one heal, one prot) and we had 3 leavers (in THK, not surprising) in the first 2 minutes because everyone was wondering where my divine boon was.

I can feel the assassin hatred from miles away with the impending Factions, too. I wonder what kind of builds were emerge with the new skills and areas. Hopefully less set-made-kickifyounotleet crap, or I may quit. That's how annoying this game is getting.

I feel your pain however it's a simple matter to swap professions as I did, in order to get into Tomb groups. The reason why R/Mo is preferred is because no one wants a party wipe. As long as one person has rebirth you can bring the entire team back if you are careful. It's an insurance policy. I run R/Me most of the time as my little mini profile indicates, although I run my own special build on that one , which while shared here, was generally panned over so no nerfage on it thank god. When I do Tombs I just map to the desert talk to the ghost hit the make me a monk and bam I'm a monk with rebirth. I do my tomb runs then I go back and make me a mesmer and bam I'm a mesmer. You have to realize though that tombs is a lengthy run and a party wipe about half way through is disheartening. The fact of the matter is that even the best groups can suffer these set backs and frankly res signet doesn't cut it. You need a reusable ressurection.

Jas D · Apr 24, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Just get a decent guild.

twicky_kid · Apr 24, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

The main reason cookie cutter builds are wanted is because they are easy to organize and better chance your party will work together well.

After a year of GW players have discovered what works and what doesn't. Thus the creation of the cookie cutter. Innovation can only last so long when the skill list never changes.

floplag · Apr 24, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

many of you hit on the main p;roblem with the cookie cutter builds ... everyone has to know thier role. many dont. they just read a build here or on some other forum and start advertising SS/SV LFG, without know how/when/where to use the skills

assuming they know, is dangerous at best, but yet the lie, out of necessity, cause they cant get a group otherwise

its a self fulfilling prophecy, without proper communication. yet what can be settled in a few minutes, tops, usually turns into F'n Noob flame wars and people getting booted.

the final thiung ill say on this is that the "efficiency" of any group or build is directly related to the people behind the keyboard, not the build itself. a good ranger is better than a bad MM or SS in SF anytime and etc...

lishi · Apr 24, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

Fun. It's a game--why not try new things? Most people aren't on their first character. Why would they want to do the same mission in the exact "same" group they did it in last time?

I do see your point, though. But for me, gaming is about fun. I'd like to finish the mission, but I'd like to have fun doing it, too. And I do like a good challenge.

And I believe that it would be easier to form pick-up groups, regardless of build, if the game had support for doing so beyond chat.

becouse they chosed to , you can always try to make in your creative way but remember the people on the other side are people with a free will and if they dont want do it on creative way , you cant do nothing about that.

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Another thing that bothers me is the insinuation that people who don't want to bother running unique builds through PUG's somehow "don't get" Guild Wars. I'm sorry I thought hte point of the game was to have fun? I don't think anyone will disagree with me there. Now Fun is subjective. What is fun to one person is boring or frustrating to another. It has nothing to do with skill, yet another subjective term, or creativity or intelligence. Still as was mentioned before you get multiple threads like this with no other real purpose to them other than to attempt to put down people who don't like to play the same way others do. And it isn't just popular builds or groups. It's all over the place. For some people their hot button is farming They think it is boring and that it isn't the "correct" way to play the game. Again a subjective thing. the bottom line is if people want to run tried and true builds and groups then let them. Don't knock them and don't complain about not getting into groups. Let them have fun their way and you have fun yours and let that be the point of the game like it should be. It's about entertainment plain and simple. I think the only "right " way to play the game is to play it for fun. I think the only thing to "get" about guild Wars is that it is in fact a game and is designed to amuse. Whatever that means to you then have at it. But just remember one man's meat is another's poison.

Evilsod · Apr 24, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Aye the ones who just read a build somewhere and think they can use it are the worst.

At least there are some who are honest in ToA and say things like 'first time SS/SV or 55monk LF xx, will pay' etc.
First time i played as SS/SV wasn't from getting it from a thread here, it was watching the SS/SV necro i went to UW with, figuring timings etc. Course the first run or 2 i buggered up groups of 3 smites but figured it out quickly. Important thing is i went with a friend rather than instantly thinking i was pro and going for ToA randoms (i never do randoms in ToA anyway).

Whats with all the hate on R/Mo? If your not using your 2ndary you SHOULD be R/Mo to bring Rebirth or your just been a stubborn RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.
I tried R/W w/ IWAY in tombs, worked quite well except i was normally the lurer so always ended up getting hit with Blind/Cripple.
R/Me too w/ Physical Resistance to at least survive 2 hits from the Grasps.

Now i do FoW its R/Mo for Rebirth and Judges Insight, way i see it no other profession can beat over double damage to skeletons (250 damage in 1 hit owns). Helpful when your Order necro either sucks or does nothing.

Serafita Kayin · Apr 24, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

I'm not gonna call people who play cookie cutter builds childish, just those that act as though the only classes in this game are:

Tank
OMFGhealer
MM
SS
Bonder
Nuker (OMG Fier!!!)
B/P Rangar!!!

And completely ignore any other class, and in fact TELL them they should delete their characters. (I get it once a week, and in fact was asked if I would sell my fellblade to a class that deserved it.)

And as to knowing your role, that is the most ridiculous thing ever. If you can play your class, with few exceptions you don't even need to know where the fsck you're going, you'll live to tell about it tomorrow. I play ranger as my main. I understand how ranger works. I can and will actively tank, contribute to party heals, act as a second hexer, interrupt, deal conditions, and damage single or multiple foes. I do runs from time to time. I blow through missions for lower levels. I understand my role. Oftentimes it's to be a puller or a caller, or to otherwise assist the team. Sometimes it's to sub for another class we lost or couldn't get. Occasionally it's to do something out of the way, such as a full hexer. I can do all of those things and enemies die, we get loot and the map progresses. I just didn't do it your way.

Oftentimes, I can take FEWER than your cookie cutter build (with the right people, who as above KNOW their class) and do what you do in the same amount of time.

B/P? How about my guild leader and I spamming empathy and epidemic? He herds them with distortion and I barrage afterwards. Hmmm, think we took 5. We made it almost all the way through before some people had to go and we had to call it. We didn't wipe. Only had one monk. No MM. We progressed more than fast enough for me.

Do I think I'm more special? No. Do I think I'm smarter than the people shouting know your role and play my definition of what works? You had better believe it.

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Another thing that bothers me is the insinuation that people who don't want to bother running unique builds through PUG's somehow "don't get" Guild Wars. I'm sorry I thought hte point of the game was to have fun?

Agreed.

Quote:

Still as was mentioned before you get multiple threads like this with no other real purpose to them other than to attempt to put down people who don't like to play the same way others do.

I've already said that wasn't my motivation for starting the thread, and I know my motivation better than you do. So stop throwing out this red herring, please. I agree that some posts have put down people who run cookie-cutter builds, but I haven't, and it wasn't my motivation for starting the thread. My motivation was to bitch about how much time I spent on the weekend trying to get into groups rather than actually playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

Don't knock them and don't complain about not getting into groups.

It's the time it takes to get into groups that's the problem, and it can happen even when you have a cookie-cutter build, but the "wrong" cookie-cutter build. My characters eventually get into a group, but it takes too long to do so. Forming groups should be facilitated in some way, as has been mentioned many times before.

{IceFire} · Apr 24, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

because they work usually

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Felinette I know you haven't really knocked on anyone but the others did. I don't mean to insinuate that you are solely to blame or that you started this thread with that intention however it got hi jacked in the beginning for that sole purpose. I tell you what though. If you like any time you want to run with me and my guild just add me to your F list. I run cookie cutter characters for PUG's just for ease of organization but my guild welcomes unique builds and groups. In fact we encourage it. The only thing is we don't share our builds or our groupings with anyone else. If you can respect that then you are more than welcome to run with us any time we are on. We have pretty dedicated players and we are all pretty active, although finals are happening right now for a lot of poeple which has cut our activity down some.

Also whoever mentioned epidemic...good on you. Very underrated skill. My primary build for my ranger utilizes epidemic heavily and he can destroy groups with ease so long as he has a tank capable of holding aggro.

Serafita Kayin · Apr 24, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Anybody of like mind may also add me, my guild has some very interesting sights in PvE, very neat stuff.

You get enough of it, you just have to vent. When you can't get in a PUG because of your class, and you want to advance your character, you get frustrated.

I still think Guild Wars is operating under Jim Crow. But, that's playes' fault and not ANet. They provided very well balanced classes, it's up to us to put them to use.

floplag · Apr 24, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

there are many guilds that have the ability to think outside the box ... its only those times that guild mates are in low supply for a particular run that things get tricky, lol

but anyone that wants to try more unique builds, say so in the chat and see whos listening, or hit up some of the guilds mentioned here.. mine included

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

however it got hi jacked in the beginning for that sole purpose....If you can respect that then you are more than welcome to run with us any time we are on. We have pretty dedicated players and we are all pretty active, although finals are happening right now for a lot of poeple which has cut our activity down some.

Yeah, I agree that some took the opportunity to put down those who run cookie-cutter builds, which is too bad. Some of my builds are cookie-cutter. Even those characters sometimes have a problem getting into a group because it's not easy to figure out who's looking (especially now that henchies are included in the group count--I'll often invite myself to a group, only to find out it's a player with a few henchies, and people have self-invited themselves to my group when it's me, Alesia, Reyna, and Stefan). I really do think that GW could do with a better system. A friend plays another online game and has been raving about how easy it is to form groups because the game provides a good system for forming and finding groups. He says it never takes more than ten minutes to get a group together.

Quote:

When you can't get in a PUG because of your class, and you want to advance your character, you get frustrated.

And if you've only got so much time to play, you can't spend half an hour sitting on your behind looking for a group. Even when starting your own group, that can happen.

Anyway, I'm off to play now. See if I can get into a group. LOL.

Mimi Miyagi · Apr 24, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Part of the issue with GW is how ANet has structured the game. You're given only a limited skillbar, limited attribute points to spend, a limited party size, and relatively long missions that can fail unless certain aspects of the mission aren't accounted for, or certain exploits (gear/book trick, for example) aren't used to make it easier. As players explore the metagame more, and discover more skills as effective parts of the game, ANet creates even harder and harder areas to explore. ANet also expends a lot of effort nerfing (rebalancing) certain exploited skills, which makes the overall game more challenging. As the game gets more difficult (Tombs as the latest example), more and more "cookie cutter" builds are required.

Think about it - when playing around in the first areas of the game past presearing, party sizes were small, and as long as you had a monk and perhaps a warrior, it didn't really matter what other professions were in the party. As you progress in the game, party sizes get bigger, but more clearly defined roles come into play because once you reach the party limit of 8 slots - the game doesn't stop getting harder so something has to make up for it.

I do agree that some people when making a party can be pretty anal about things, to even quibble over skillbar selections and party composition. And I'm not just talking about a standard 2 warrior, 2 monk, 1 ele and one necro, but actually specifying skillbar selections (a battery necro, a bonder, an echo fire nuker, a stance tank) but that's their perogative. As I said before, you don't have to partake if you don't agree with it.

Moa Bird Cultist · Apr 24, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

My post earlier was not intended as an insult, Strobo, it was merely a very broad generalization, so if you were offended by my remarks, I apologize.

Now, we have come to a very important part of this thread: What makes guild wars fun? As strobo said, one man's meat is another mans poison and this could not be truer in a game like guild wars, where the player base varies wildly in terms of age, ethnic background and gender. Not one of the over 1,000,000 people in the GW world have fun in exactly the same way. Now some players, like felinette and myself, simply dont enjoy cookie cutter pugs, not only because they can be such a hassle to form, but because there is absolutely no scope for variety outside of a given role. Take the MM. Now, MM necro is IMMENSE fun to play, as theres nothing more satisfying than rolling over a massive mob with the ease of buttering a slice of bread. But, if you want to be a cookie cutter MM, there is no option other than N/Mo, because, of course, heal area is the only way to heal minions. Of course, N/R doesnt work because theres no such thing as healing spring, is there? jk
But even this gets boring after a little while, at least, for me and a lot of other people.

Now, accuse me of bragging all you want, but I'm proud to not fit into that category. I feel proud every time I'm out with my elementalist and someone says 'noob ele, delete that piece of [email protected] and make an SS' or 'why arent you nuking noob?' or 'eles warriors is the worst class ever, ur lying that u can farm with it, noob!' I get that sort of comment all the time. I even get flamed by my fellow eles for having geomancer armour as opposed to pyro or aero. What do you make of that? That is what the people Serafita mentions think of the rest of the GW populace. You, I and the vast majority of people on this forum are different. Even those that have leapt to the defence of the cookie cutter builds are different, because you argue your points validly enough.

Quote:

I'm not gonna call people who play cookie cutter builds childish, just those that act as though the only classes in this game are:

Tank
OMFGhealer
MM
SS
Bonder
Nuker (OMG Fier!!!)
B/P Rangar!!!

And completely ignore any other class, and in fact TELL them they should delete their characters. (I get it once a week, and in fact was asked if I would sell my fellblade to a class that deserved it.)

It is these people that this thread was originally about. Note that the thread was about the mentality of such groups and in no way criticised the validity of such builds. They are the most effective, whether I or anyone else likes it or not, but no-one is obliged to play them. These people play them, plus they enjoy doing it. But whos to say they wouldnt enjoy playing guild wars even more if they opened their eyes for a change? But why do they refuse to alter their groups even slightly, I wonder? People fear change, thats why. By allowing an element they cannot understand into the group, they put the roles of the whole group in question. what does a booktrick team do when they have no stance tank? They fall apart, thats what. I've seen it happen on one fow run - the tank leaves and suddenly, there is a mass exodus of all the generic classes, leaving the people who created the team to clean up after them. Let me tell you that FoW is technically possible with 3 people who dont fit any specific build if theyve got their minds set to it - a bloodspiker, nuker and smitespiker is a perfectly valid team to go at fissure and it was the most fun I ever had down there. of course, we couldnt engage the big groups at all, but we chipped our way around the edges quite nicely. Okay, brag over, you know what I'm getting at - the durability of a cookie cutter group is much lower than the durability of a bunch of loonies - the cc's are a fragile group - if one goes down, they are likely to panic and/or fall apart. If someone drops from your average party of loonies, they will lament the loss and move on, at reduced efectiveness, but still solid, nonetheless. Anyway, I've rambled long enough, time for me to go do something else... (dunno what cause am stuck at work all night after missing me last train...

)

Sidra · Apr 24, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serafita Kayin

Anybody of like mind may also add me, my guild has some very interesting sights in PvE, very neat stuff.

You get enough of it, you just have to vent. When you can't get in a PUG because of your class, and you want to advance your character, you get frustrated.

I still think Guild Wars is operating under Jim Crow. But, that's playes' fault and not ANet. They provided very well balanced classes, it's up to us to put them to use.

I've had people leave in the middle of missions and regroup when I told them I'd be right back after I finished saying a 2 minute Hebrew prayer honoring the Sabbath... apparently one of the wammo's convinced the group that I was bad luck XD. A-net really needs a better reporting system.

Str0b0 · Apr 25, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Fair enough man. I just have this thing about making broad generalizations. It's easy to do and I'm guilty of it myself. I think we all are at some point. I can take an apology though and I appreciate you being big enough to make that step. Usually people just ignore me LoL :P

LoKi Foxfire · Apr 25, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Is it me or am I the only one who is noticing people advertisizing B/P ranger for FoW? Does that build even work? I'm usually soloing spiders or forest so I never bother to check but.. jesus.

I miss the days after launch - there weren't too many builds per se that were tried and true for PvE and it was a bit easier to get a group for everyone. Or maybe I'm just nostalgic. I just remember doing RoF before the 'newb wave' (as I call it - the progression of below average players to end-game missions) hit RoF... I think we had like 3 rangers (I was one), 2 monks, 1 warrior, and like 2 elementalists. Oh well.

I really hope Factions pulls something with its mobs to disrupt the cookie cutter skills... :]

Str0b0 · Apr 25, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoKi Foxfire

Is it me or am I the only one who is noticing people advertisizing B/P ranger for FoW? Does that build even work? I'm usually soloing spiders or forest so I never bother to check but.. jesus.

I miss the days after launch - there weren't too many builds per se that were tried and true for PvE and it was a bit easier to get a group for everyone. Or maybe I'm just nostalgic. I just remember doing RoF before the 'newb wave' (as I call it - the progression of below average players to end-game missions) hit RoF... I think we had like 3 rangers (I was one), 2 monks, 1 warrior, and like 2 elementalists. Oh well.

I really hope Factions pulls something with its mobs to disrupt the cookie cutter skills... :]

I hope Factions mixes it up a bit but honestly there are some builds and groups builds that are just so darned effective it's hard to throw a wrench in the works. I can certainly see the same B/P group working in FoW and even UW to a lesser degree since it relies on multiple avenues of attack and basically using the MM as a force multiplier, turning your group of 8 into a group of 16 or more. I mean the FoW and UW enemies are nasty to be sure but a 16 member party is pretty overwhelming based simply on damage. The thing that makes or breaks B/P groups in my opinion is the quality of the rangers dedicated to interrupting. You usually have the spirit holders then your puller and then the interrupters. If your interrupters stay on point and deny the enemy their spell casting a B/P group can decimate just about anything. Honestly I see the B/P group as a pretty universal group. The only exception is in areas where there are lots of enemies that do not leave exploitable corpses. Then the MM is forced to rely on dead pets and dead party members to build their armies.